STARRS Podcast
STARRS Podcasts includes the series STARRS & Stripes which interviews military veterans, talks about their careers and military service, and their concerns about what is happening in today's military. See our website, starrs.us, for more information.
STARRS Podcast
Journey to Chief: Rod McKinley on Military Service, Standards, Families and Leadership Values
STARRS & Stripes host CDR Al Palmer, USN ret, interviews STARRS Board of Directors member Rodney McKinley, who served as the 15th Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force. McKinley shares his journey on how a childhood visit to the Air Force Museum at Wright-Patterson AFB ignited a spark that led to a lifelong commitment to service from enlisted airman to the highest-ranking enlisted person in the Air Force. The discussion centers on military heritage, the importance of Junior ROTC programs, accountability in leadership, and the ongoing need for public awareness of military culture and values.
• Insights on the influence of family in military recruitment
• Importance of military heritage in shaping public perception
• The role of Junior ROTC in nurturing future service members
• Reflections on maintaining standards and discipline in military culture
• Why pushing drag queen shows on Air Force bases is not a good idea
• Emphasis on mentorship and building relationships in leadership
• Advocacy for a return to meritocracy in military service
• Importance of community involvement in military history
• Analysis of current challenges in military recruitment and retention
Timestamps:
00:00:11 Inspiring Military Service and Heritage
00:12:55 Military Family Recognition and Progression
00:30:34 Maintaining Military Image and Standards
00:35:49 Military Service, Values, and Progress
00:46:27 Honoring Military History and Heroes
00:52:45 Accountability and Leadership in Military
01:06:29 Building Strong Military Community Relationships
USAF Bio:
CHIEF MASTER SERGEANT OF THE AIR FORCE RODNEY J. MCKINLEY > Air Force > Biography Display
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Hello America. This is Commander Alan Palmer, united States Navy, retired, your host for Stars and Stripes. This is your view into what's happening in today's military and also, in a larger sense, in our society. We're happy to be back with you now after the change in the election that just took place, and we've got new things happening in the country which are pretty exciting.
Speaker 1:But for us here at STARS we've been on that now from the beginning for the last several years in trying to make sure that the military is strong, is focused on warfighting and is focused on exceptionalism when it comes to defending the country that come to fruition, and I'm very proud to be a part of STARS, which has been instrumental in making some of these things that are happening now actually reality, and so, as part of that, I'm really pleased today to have as my guest the 15th Chief Master, sergeant of the Air Force, master Sergeant Rodney McKinley, and Rod and I are going to talk a little bit about how the Air Force had worked over the years, some of the changes that we've both seen, because we were both in the Air Force roughly in the same time frame and then we'll talk a little bit about the things that we see in the future. I'm really excited to have Rod with us in the future. I'm really excited to have Rod with us and so with that Chief Master, sergeant of the Air Force.
Speaker 2:McKinley. Welcome to the show. Thank you very much, Alan. It's a pleasure to be here with you and thank you for your tremendous service and everything that you've done for our country.
Speaker 1:Well, listen, the honor is mine, and it's not often that we get to talk to another guy that's worked on F-4s that I may have flown, so I'm happy to have you here for that part of it, because you went from an enlisted E-1 all the way up through E-9 and the chief master sergeant of the Air Force, which is the top position in the enlisted ranks. But it's also more than that, you know. It's also a leadership position in the Air Force. That represents a huge portion of it, and so I'm anxious to talk to you a little bit about that aspect of it. But before we do, just tell us a little bit about what got you into the Air Force, into the service, and how did you think about it then. Was there a motivating factor that led you there, like family or friends? How'd that work?
Speaker 2:It's kind of amazing because I grew up outside of Cincinnati, ohio, in Manor. In my sixth grade class we went to the museum in Wright-Patterson our museum there and I just kind of fell in love with the Air Force and the aircraft and everything else. And so that was my first really thoughts of the Air Force and the aircraft and everything else, and so that was my first really thoughts of the Air Force is in the sixth grade. And then when I was graduating high school me and a couple of buddies we went to see a recruiter in Batavia, ohio, and he talked to us about the Air Force and so we decided to go in on the buddy system and so we all went to Lackland Air Force Base, one went to. After that one went to Nebraska and I went to Seymour Johnson, north Carolina.
Speaker 2:And so the interesting thing about all that is my sixth grade class going to the museum. Later on, you know, it's just ironic that I ended up being on the board of that museum and my picture hangs in that museum. So that's how I got into the Air Force and it's just just. It's just. I have friends from high school. They go visit the museum. They say, hey, your picture hangs there and I said, yeah, if they hang it there to keep the mice away. You know, it's very, very humbling to have the opportunity to have a career like I had. I'm very thankful for everybody that pushed me along and helped me to get to where I got.
Speaker 1:So do you think that that may be kind of a motivating factor when young people go to places like museums, or they go see movies or anything else, it's the people there, like you and like so many others that have served the country, that serve as examples to them, that get them inspired enough to go sign up. That wasn't too difficult. When Pearl Harbor was bombed, people flooded in, signed up, and I think the same thing was certainly evident in 9-11 when we got attacked again. So that's one way of getting people into the service. But it seems to me that there's another draw there. The draw is the valor of people in both combat, but just in everyday work and keeping a country strong and keeping it safe. I think maybe we need to do more things like that in museums, in film, in media.
Speaker 2:Boy Alan, you just hit the button there. I'll just take off and run with that one, because I believe in that. Totally. Run with that one because I believe in that totally. Currently we only have about four and a half percent of our country that's ever served in the military and only about 0.5% of the country currently serves. So you have a tremendous amount of the country that really does not have knowledge of our military, of what we've done or what we're doing. They don't know our history, our heritage.
Speaker 2:So the more that we can get out and touch the public to tell them what we're all about and show our love of country, our love of our service and the love of our heritage, where we came from and the battles we fought in and the wars you know everything else that's tremendous. You know. I think there's some things that help out Tunnel for Towers, the Wounded Warrior Project shows those who have paid some big prices. I think that does a whole lot right there. The museums if we can get the public to go visit our museums and see our aircraft or the Marines or whatever. But each one of us has our heritage. Another big part that I think is super important is junior ROTC.
Speaker 2:You know, even when I was in the Pentagon as the chief, you know we had issues and I tried to help because we weren't properly funding Air Force junior ROTC and that's so important that we fund them, the young people in high school, to have them learn about our history and a little bit of discipline, integrity and all those other things they may go on to serve in a branch of service doesn't matter which branch they serve in, but also it just gives them some camaraderie and wear the uniform, and I think Junior ROTC is incredible and so I would, and I think we have 3,600 Junior ROTC spread all across the country.
Speaker 2:So I would encourage our Secretary of Defense to help financially support you know the Junior ROTC across the country because I've spoken at many of them in the past and sometimes they got a scrape to get the uniforms to to do things and and that's a great source of recruiting, you know is a junior ROTC. And so anything we can do to reach out to the public, you know about what we do and I really like the Super Bowl. There were a couple ads in the commercials in the Super Bowl that I thought were tremendous, that we really haven't seen much, and so anything we can do to educate the public of those that serve and those who have served and to tell the stories of the great Americans that have sacrificed so much, you know, I think helps with recruiting and retention for the future.
Speaker 1:Well, it's interesting you mentioned the Junior ROTC, because there was a case here in Texas where a local junior ROTC class discovered that there was an F-4 on exhibit here in Central Texas and it was in kind of bad shape. That junior ROTC ended up restoring that airplane, at least externally, with paint and all to make it look exactly like it was, and it was a combat aircraft which they didn't realize. It look exactly like it was and it was a combat aircraft which they didn't realize. So this junior ROTC bunch of kids, led by an Eagle Scout and his dad, took this whole effort on themselves and did a great job with it. Turns out that airplane actually was one that I flew in combat.
Speaker 1:But the result of that was the whole community then rallied around that and that became a big thing for this very small community in Central Texas and to this day they're still talking about it. They even made a film about it. So you know, those are the kind of things you can get them involved in. And you're right, you know Pete Eggstaff ought to take off on that and energize that element in our society.
Speaker 1:But anyway, I just mentioned that is one of the things that can be done yeah, that's.
Speaker 2:That's uh an easy one to accomplish right there and, you know, would not take a tremendous amount of money. But just make sure that each junior rtc for each branch of service is fully funded to what they actually need to accomplish their mission in these high schools. We have a high school close to where I live. It's called clover high school and they actually have 450 junior ROTC. I believe it's the largest junior ROTC in the in the country. But they travel, they go to all events and do flag ceremonies. They have expert rifle competition across the country. They even teach these high schools how to fly, learn these things from Air Force senior NCOs and the commander there and to potentially be go in and serve in the military. And even if they don't, they've learned some life lessons in that junior ROTC that could help them be successful in life.
Speaker 1:So in terms of family though, family comes into that equation too, does it not? You know, with a good base for finding recruits and all but that kind of got diminished over the last several years, when we kind of got away from some of the more basic elements, as you and I have talked about with military service and I have talked about with military service and into more of the DEI business and some other things that interfered with the concept of duty, honor and country. So do you think we're on a swing back the other direction now?
Speaker 2:I certainly hope so, because I think in the past I've spoken to just thousands and thousands of airmen and many of them come from families, parents, who have served in the military, whether they've served in the Army, whether they've served in the Air Force, but they have family members who have served before. I think recently, because of things that have happened, I don't think, as many of the prior military would say, I want you to go in the military or I wish you would, but you know, hopefully that's turning around. I think it's all about pride and wearing the uniform. It's about standards, it's about discipline, it's about standards, it's about discipline. And when you have that and the people that are retired and they have kids that are growing up, they go yes, this is the military, I want you to go and join and they're going to take good care of you and you're going to have a lot of pride in wearing that uniform. And I hope things turn around where that great source for recruitment is from people that previously served and so hopefully we get that going back.
Speaker 2:And I just recently saw the Army Just recently their recruitment has just kind of skyrocketed and how that happened. I think maybe that's because you know the pride and seeing the changes in the military and the direction we're going to go. And I just watched a video this morning of Secretary of Defense Hegseth where he was over in Germany doing PT with special forces. Now, don't you know that hits home when you can get out there and shake the hands of those that wear the cloth of our nation and you're getting down there and doing squats and pushups and running with them. Man, that's just got to give so much pride to our military. And then the youngsters that are out there in high school or whatever, going to recruiter's office they see this and they go. I wanna be a part of that. That's something special, so I think it's incredible.
Speaker 1:Well, special is exactly the word to use, isn't it? Special and exceptional? You're not just like everybody else in society when you join the military. You are, just by virtue of that now, an exceptional person because you're going to have to meet standards, you're going to have to be high on integrity and honesty, and that's just something that's not in everybody that's out there in the rest of the society. So that is a big element.
Speaker 1:I think the other thing is that the family doesn't always get very much attention. Sometimes the children, the relatives of people in the military are a strong source of that, as we've discussed. But they're also still a strong voice to spread the real time experiences about what military life is about. And there was an occasion I saw my wife was visiting with somebody not too long ago and they said well, yeah, but you're just a dependent, you know you're not in the military and you don't know what it's all about, which got her a little excited. But the point there is, the family is a big part of everything that we do and, trust me, nobody goes, as you know, nobody goes into combat, nobody is deployed overseas without the family being there back home taking care of things. That's wives, kids, relatives, so they're also a big part of what we do, which sometimes is not recognized. What do you think about that?
Speaker 2:That is so true, alan. There's nothing. We deploy and we work long hours and we work weekends and so forth, but the family's always there. Someone still has to go shop, someone has to take care of the kids, someone has to mow the yard, you know, and and that stuff continues even if you're deployed for several months, you know. And so we've got to do things also to take care of the family, because the family sacrifices when you have kids that are moved every two or three years and it's hard for them to establish relationships and so forth.
Speaker 2:And I actually did the congressional testimony to the Hask and also the Sask on the family, because you can have a situation where you know where you have a kid that's going to be a senior in high school and they have this Texas, say, texas history, and they move to South Carolina and they won't accept the Texas history because they're required to have South Carolina history. So therefore, maybe they can't graduate on time because they're lacking South Carolina history. Well, we should not punish family members because someone is serving. We've got to take those things. And, in addition, spouses Spouses may have a good job at one location and now they're forced to move to another state, or even overseas.
Speaker 2:So they lose their job, they lose their career, and so we've got to do things to make it easier for them to be hired, easier for their accreditations to be transferred from state to state and so forth. So it's not just taking care of the military members, taking care of the family members, from the spouse to the children, because we're all a team, we all go together and the important thing is, at the end of the day, when a person goes to their retirement ceremony, we want that family to still be with them. So we've got to take care of the family all the way along yeah, and I think that's changed over the years.
Speaker 1:I remember when, when I retired, my wife also got us certificate certificate of being a military wife uh, and that's great kind of recognition I think that we have yeah, I actually created.
Speaker 2:You know, when I, when I got into the office of Chief Master Sergeant Air Force, you know I would get little notes that there's a Chief Master Sergeant retiring from somewhere and I'd write a little note thanking them for their service and everything.
Speaker 2:We'd send that. But I'm going, like you know what Every airman deserves to be recognized from the Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force, whether they're a staff sergeant, tech sergeant or chief. So I created a certificate from the Office of the Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force to thank him for the retirement and everything else. And so if you retire as a staff Sergeant even with a staff Sergeant with a medical retirement, you're going to get a certificate from the current Chief Master Sergeant Air Force. In addition, the Chief Master Sergeant Air Force also sends one to the spouse because it's a team effort. So I think it's important for the Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force to recognize all the enlisted that are retiring, including everybody, not just the Chief Master Sergeant that's retiring. And on occasion I would also get an officer that's retiring and says, hey, can I have one from you too? So, yeah, sure, an officer that's retiring says, hey, can I have one from you too.
Speaker 2:So yeah, sure, we do that, so it's good to recognize all airmen who contribute, no matter what rank they are.
Speaker 1:So that's the thing that's always stuck in my mind, and particularly since I was half and half half Air Force and half Navy force and half Navy. But in both services, whenever somebody, particularly the junior enlisted, were being promoted, the one thing we wanted to make them understand and we acknowledged was the fact that this is happening because of what you've done, the performance you've had, the merit that you've got and also the trust that you've now earned. That's increased because of the new rank, and I think that's something that's a little different that we do in the military than we do back in the civilian society. When you get promoted at IBM or Amazon or somewhere else, you get a little better paycheck, maybe get a job title, but no one has put as much trust in you for running a country as you do in the military when you get a promotion right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that promotion is really. It's not necessarily what you've done in the past, but it's what we expect you to do in the future.
Speaker 1:Yes, and that's why we're doing it.
Speaker 1:We're showing you, we've now given you extra trust because we do expect you to use it. Yeah Well, so let's go back a bit to what's happening today. We here at STARS have fought pretty hard to identify things that we think are not quite right with the DEI and CRT, the diversity, equity and inclusion and the critical race theory that go with the beginning of that. Those are things that are focused more on external factors rather than merit and the things that people do every day to make the military work. And that became a problem, as we all know, and we here at STARS fought hard to get that recognized, and I think that what's happened now is we've actually won part of that battle, but there's probably a little bit more to go. You want to talk about that a little bit, how you saw the difference from when you got into the Air Force in the 70s and where we've gone now to, or at least recently, where we had DEI and these other factors that were not promoting meritocracy but actually getting in the way maybe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you, alan, and I know this is a sensitive subject and everything I'll say here is just my opinion. It's not the opinion of the United States Air Force, but it's just my personal opinion. But you know, the military we've never been perfect. You go back into the Civil War, where we had segregated units. You know where the black? You had the black units and then they weren't allowed to mix with the white units, and even up through World War II we even still had the same. And then Eisenhower in 1948, you know did away with segregation and so that you'd have the military units that were mixed together. And I think that was a fantastic move.
Speaker 2:And then from there, on you know, didn't matter what color you were, what race you were, didn't matter. You know what color you were, what race you were male, female you know that you'd serve together. Then you know, I came in in July of 1974. And it's pretty interesting because I've gone back and I've looked at some of the data from there and in 1974, we probably had over, you know, 4,000 chief master sergeants in the Air Force and out of that there were only 12 females out of 4,000. You know so females weren't really allowed to do much and they weren't going to achieve any rank or anything at that point in time to do much, and they weren't going to achieve any rank or anything at that point in time. And the jobs they had females, the jobs they had were jobs just like administration, working in the hospital, and we didn't allow females to really do too much.
Speaker 2:And you look at the history of females in our military. You go back to World War II. We would not have been successful without females From Rosie the Riveter across the nation and the job they did. But we lost over 500 females in World War II that were test pilots here stateside and so they lost their lives testing aircraft and so that's really not talked about, about the accomplishments of women, of what they actually did in World War II to help us to that victory. Now fast forward to my time in the early 70s. You may remember we had race riots, you know.
Speaker 1:Yes, we did yeah.
Speaker 2:So we came out and we had, you know, we developed social actions and you had to go to race relations classes, you know, and and I didn't quite understand that, because growing up I yeah, I just was not accustomed to, you know, race issues, you know, I mean, you know I was a big fan of Martin Luther King and and that movement and so forth, but didn't really see it. But then through my career, we were always diverse and through my career we were always very diverse and females got the jobs, a lot more jobs other than just the jobs they had back early, and but the person working next to me, whether they were black, asian or it didn't matter to me, it did not matter to me whatsoever, and you know it was either that on or off duty. You know, we played sports together, we socialized together, we, we drank beer together, and so we've always been diverse. In my opinion, we've been a diverse military. So, and then you know so then you go into the recent years where all of a sudden we have youI and everyone has to attend classes. Then you go to the equity part of it where you have to have this amount of this race and this amount of that race. We're the military, and the military should be putting the best people that as far as their skills and their capability into positions, not because of the color of their skin or a quota, but what they have earned to be there. And so, whether it's if you're gonna put someone in an F-22 or an air traffic control tower, it should be the person that has earned through the merit system that they should be there, and you should not be putting someone else ahead of someone that's more qualified just because of their race. So we've always been diverse, and you know, and the and the thing is, if you have a group of people that are falling behind, what do you do to get them up there where they can compete for those jobs?
Speaker 2:And and and I'll go back to another thing is I think one of the failures of our country is our education system. You know. So, when you have a large portion of our country that graduate high school and they can't even read or they're not even close to the reading level we've got to, especially in inner cities, we can't continue to push people on to graduate high school and get a diploma if they are not learning. So when you educate our young people from K through 12, and then you don't have to worry about the DEI part of it and the equity part of it, because everyone's going to be pretty much educated on the same level. And we've got to get there, to that point, to give everybody the equal opportunity because their education provides them the quality to be able to get to those points.
Speaker 2:And I think we're far from it. And you know, back before we had the Department of Education, we were ranked number one in the world and now we're way down the list 26, 27, 27, something like that. So you know, say, well, what's that got to do with the air force or military? I think it has a lot to do with it oh, it does yes you know, so I I think you know, ed.
Speaker 2:You know working on the education system and educating our youth to make them smarter and more prepared when they graduate high school. Are they able to pass the entrance test to come into military?
Speaker 1:Well, sure, because what you're saying is the same thing I think we've talked about before. The military does probably the very best job of anybody in training and discipline and making sure that people are noted for their performance. When you start slacking off on that, like you say, starting in schools, but it's also in work and everything else and you can say, even with things like fighting crime, if you're not disciplined, you're not serious, you're not results oriented and you're not training people correctly to do the job that they have, you're going to short. You're going to come up short every time, right?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. You know, and you know being in the military, you know it's. I don't want to be seen as just another JOB where you get up and you go to work.
Speaker 1:No one wants that.
Speaker 2:Being in the military is something that's in your heart. You love it. It's a part of your history and heritage, of the branch of service that you're in and that you know you. It becomes part of you the military. But I think a really important part of that is our image to the country. Like I said, only about four and a half percent of the country's ever served.
Speaker 2:So when the country, the American citizen or people from other country look at our people in uniform in the United States of America, do they have respect? Or do they look at us and go, wow, man, that person is overweight. I can't believe they're in uniform. They look sloppy. So how we present ourselves in uniform to the public is super, super important. Do they have confidence in us? Do they have faith in us that if we were to go to a war against you name a country if we were to go to war, do we have faith that we are prepared, that we look the part, we act the part. We look the part, we act the part.
Speaker 2:And when you have sometimes I don't know why we make uniforms so big you know at some point in time you've got to go. You know if we at some point in time, if a person can't fit in the uniform this size, then they don't belong in the military. So it's really important that we do that. And so it's the image, it's the standards, it's the discipline, it's those things that we've learned in basic training from our military training instructors, the same things you learn in ROTC, the same things you learn in our service academies. That should follow you the rest of your lives in the military. And that's standards, it's discipline. You are in the military and that if you it's discipline, you are in the military. And that if you're told to do something unless it's an unlawful order and I got to tell you in my almost 31 years of service I never had an unlawful order, you know so yes, that would mean yeah, everything I was told to do, I went, I went and did it because it was my leadership.
Speaker 2:Said go do this and I did it. And I did it to the best of my capability. And I got to tell you, when I was the PACAF command chief, one of my heroes, general Hester, I love him to death, a great airman. He said hey, chief.
Speaker 1:I work with him too.
Speaker 2:He said number 14, gerald Murray, he's retiring. I said yes, sir, I know that. He said, well, you need to be number 15. I said no, I don't. I got a lot of things. I want to get finished here in PACF. He said, well, I'm putting your name in anyway, I putting your name in anyway. I said whatever, so I'm going back. So it ended up. I got an interview with General Mosley, a great man, chief of staff of the Air Force. So I flew the Pentagon in my service dress and I didn't do any studying or anything else, I just decided that I was going to go there. I was going to report, just like Tech Sergeant taylor, my drill sergeant, taught me how to report in basic training. So I went there and and I reported to general uh mosley and said sir, chief mckinley, reporting is ordered. And he said so we sat down. He said, chief, what do you think I mean? That was the question I got. He said what do you think I'm going like? Oh my God, what a question.
Speaker 1:So think about what right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, I'm thinking well, this was 2006, early 2006. I'm going like, well, the Buckeyes are going to be really good this year. You know, and I said well, sir, I got to be honest with you. My goal has never been to be the chief master sergeant in the Air Force. My goals have always been simple Whatever job the Air Force gives me, I'm going to do that job to the best of my capability and I'm going to treat every single person I come in contact with dignity and respect.
Speaker 2:And I'm going to do those other things I should be doing, like my professional military education, my physical fitness, my on and off duty education, all those other things I should be doing as an airman. I'm going to do those better than my peers and I'm going to leave it up to my leadership to decide what they want to do with me. He looked at me. He said damn, that's a good answer, chief. I didn't want to be the Chief of Staff, so with that, I ended up getting hired to be an airman alongside General Mosley. But that's my message. It's just you know, be humble, go out there and whatever job you have to do, give it your best effort, do it a little bit better than your peers and you know, and if you doing all that and you're doing the right things, you're going to be successful.
Speaker 2:So, whatever job you're in, whether you're in the military, whether you're in your civilian life, but put in a little bit of that extra effort. You look at the great sports athletes, michael Jordan, etc. And Kobe Bryant man they practiced. They were the first one in the gym, man, they practiced. They were the first one in the gym, the last one out. Well, that stayed with military service also.
Speaker 2:You know, and I remember working on the A-10 aircraft, I would take the Dash 1 home so that I could learn as much about the A-10 as I possibly could you know, I possibly could you know and uh, whatever job you have, whether it's in contracting or whatever go that little extra mile just to be a little bit better in the job than than uh, than everybody else, and then you share that knowledge too. It's not it's not like I'm going to keep this all to myself. You make everybody else around you better. You bring everybody up.
Speaker 2:Your goal is not to be you standing on a mountain and everyone and looking down on everybody, but you're all on top of the mountain and you're all sharing good ideas and you're making the air force and your unit, your squadron, better but I mean it.
Speaker 1:It doesn't.
Speaker 1:Time goes by, for for guys like us pretty quickly, but I can still remember back in the early days going through basic training in officer training school and it was a matter of now refocusing from you as an individual to you as a member of a team, and some of that is kind of erasing some of that and getting people back to a level field where they can now grow into something that is team-oriented and it's more of a larger picture thing, and I think that's what's been happening today.
Speaker 1:The focus has gone back to focusing on individual needs, individual qualities and things, to the detriment of the team that we're trying to build in the military, and I'm happy to see us, I think, going back in that direction again. But, as you say, it's all those things, it's training, it's discipline, it's commitment, which is a word that sometimes I find missing. You're committing yourself to doing something bigger than you and something for a larger cause, which is defending your country, your way of life. That's not something, again, you see in a corporate side, but I'm happy to see, I think, that we're starting to go back to that a little bit. And so what are your thoughts on where we go now that some of this is now starting to maybe swing back in that direction, are we on the right path? Do we here, particularly at STARS, have some of the tools that we need now to go forward and help that?
Speaker 2:You know, I hope so. You look at STARS and you look at. You know what our mission was or is still in our mission statement, dei and CRT, and also to the military members that were kicked out because they refused the vaccine. Well, all those are being reversed right now by the current administration. So you can say yes, those are all positives and you can say success, but there's, I think there's still a lot of work to do and how you implement all that stuff. So I think that STARS can be helpful in in helping how do we implement that. You know, when you, when you talk about you talk about all the military members that were kicked out because they refused the vaccine, and now we're going to restate them into the rank that they were and we're going to give them back pay. Well, that in itself is not a simple little thing when you think about it. You were an E8, and we're going to give you a rank back. You can't put them in that same position that they were in, because that position is already filled. So where do you put them? And maybe they got out of the military and then they have this really nice corporate job and everything else, but then you're going to pay them all this back pay, even while they had a civilian job. Okay, there's a lot of questions with with with that also. And then you have another aspect that you know you had 8 000 and some that were kicked out, but then you had a whole bunch I mean you talking hundreds of thousands who actually took the vaccine and maybe had multiple doses of the vaccine. And then there's actually documented vaccine injuries. How do you take care of them? You know that's a big question. How do you take care of those that are vaccine injured, with myocarditis or whatever and blood clots, and that's something they have to deal with for the rest of their lives.
Speaker 2:So, uh, I think, with the information of how these changes that we're going through, I think stars can be a big help, much like, maybe, the rand corporation.
Speaker 2:You ask them for advice and studies or whatever that you have a lot of military experts or history who belong on stars, who work on stars, so you have a wealth of knowledge there that you can draw from.
Speaker 2:That can help the Secretary of Defense or to how do you wade through the waters to make these things successful. So I think it's a great thing of where we are, but we kind of have to rethink ourselves of what is the future. You don't want to dissolve, you want to go ahead and still be something that can help the military evolve into even better and better and better, and be an institution that the Secretary of Defense, chief of Staffs and so forth draw from, or can maybe say hey, can you look into this for us? Give us some recommendations, and we can do that, probably at a better price than what they go out to other places and do this. So I think it's something that the leadership here at STARS needs to look at and say where do we go from here? How can we be successful? How can we make our country more successful? By giving advice and direction and educating the public.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think that one of the things we can possibly do is something that you're familiar with is produce some videos of our heritage that we can educate the public with to give the country that pride in what we have, because I guarantee you you just talked about the candy bomber I guarantee you, 99.9% of the country has no idea who the candy bomber is. So things like that we can do very easily, that we can produce and put out there on YouTube or whatever that can help the public know where we've come from and where we're going. And so we just got to redefine our mission statement and possibly help with the successes that we already have in DEI, crt and the vaccine, help with how do we implement those and give advice if requested to give that advice.
Speaker 1:So we've been good at identifying problems, finding solutions, and I think we're onto that.
Speaker 1:But you're right, there's something more there that needs to be done to make sure that the population understands how important the work is and what we're doing.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, I mean, we used to make movies in hollywood, uh, about war heroes, and that's always been a big thing.
Speaker 1:But some of the heroes are really the average everyday guys and gals doing the work and and and and footing the, the weapons on airplanes and getting everything ready, or on a ship, making sure their fire drills are working, that you don't risk the ship being sunk with everybody on it, and so that's all the same thing. It's that team effort that goes into doing that, and I think you're right. I think there's probably an opportunity there for us to get more into that kind of recognition and education that goes with the elements of being in the military, and that doesn't mean that we avoid things like the arduous work that has to be done, the danger that's there sometimes and, yes, people do get hurt and sometimes die in the process of doing that but that only adds to the value of a service that we all have, and I think that's something that we'll probably get into a little bit but I think that also you know from stars, it's not a popularity contest.
Speaker 2:You know, some of the things that you know stars and leadership has put out there is is not popular, uh, may not get a lot of credit or whatever, but uh, you know to do the right thing. It's not being a leader. It's not a popularity contest, even for me putting my name next to stars. I'm sure that there's a lot of people saying, chief, what the hell are you doing? You know, but for me I can sit on the sidelines and go, oh, this sucks or whatever. But are you willing to put your name out there and do something about it, or you just want to sit on the side and complain? I choose to be part of the solution versus part of the problem. So I think that, moving forward, we should not shy away from difficult subjects, that if it's something that's out there, unpopular, it's like, well, we're not going to touch that. If it's something that we can help with, it's something that we can study. If it's something that we can provide advice and solutions to the Secretary of Defense or the public, we've got to attack it.
Speaker 1:Well, let me ask and that's exactly, I think, where we're going to probably end up going. Let me ask you this Part of what we do and advocate is also part of what are issues today in today's modern military, and that has to do with integrity, accountability, strong leadership and being the caretaker of the history and reputation of what we've done in the military. Those are some pretty admirable goals. Do you think we're getting there today?
Speaker 2:Well, I hope so. You know, I think that we've gotten away from looking at our history as much as we've had in the past. I think that the young people don't, and you know, educate uh the younger military members, or even some of the older military members of where we came from. Uh, our history and our heritage of each branch of service is so important when you, when you talk about a marine and you talk about iwo jima I mean I guarantee you the marines know what.
Speaker 2:Some history about Iwo Jima? You know, and oh yes. So when you talk to an airman, you talk about the sacrifices that we made flying B-17s in Europe and the amount of airmen that died in Europe, and I believe we had more airmen killed in World War II than the Navy and Marines combined. You know the losses were incredible flying those B-17s. Well, does the average airman have any clue on what they had to go through flying those B-17s? At 30,000, 35,000 feet? It was 40 degrees below zero. They were getting frostbitten. While in this missions and they're trying to make 25 missions, you know.
Speaker 2:And then you, the shell of the of the b-17s was super thin metal. The shrapnel would just go right through them. In addition to that, they had, you know, a lot of them dives on hypoxia, because you had an oxygen line that would go from the cockpit all the way to the back and if that line got crimped the person in the back would die of hypoxia. So the pilot had to, every few seconds, get on the mic and just check in the back to make sure that they were still alive, you know. So does the average airman have any clue about that?
Speaker 2:And I think we should know that, because that gives you pride. When you have that uniform on, it says US Air Force man. Think of those that came before you and everything that they sacrificed. So I think we need to do more. I don't want to get away from where we came from, and a lot of times you, you also go, alan, you go. Well, well, let's, let's. I think this is something we should try and you go. We tried that 20 years ago, you know, and it didn't work yeah, so, yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're right well, you go back and you you don't forget those leaders from the past because they have all this knowledge of what worked and what didn't work. And it's good to go back and talk to them to find out that history, so that you don't make the same mistake, maybe, that they made before and you don't spend a tremendous amount of money. That's going down a path that you should not be going down, that path. So, uh, learning from the our history and keeping those leaders from the past alive and current, I think is a big help to each branch of service to make sure we're going forward and not going backward.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that view of history has got some pretty remarkable people. One of them that I got to be friends with and work with was General Robin Olds. Robin Olds and his vice commander, chappy James, or Batman and Robin they used to call them. But here's a black fighter pilot colonel, a white fighter pilot colonel, both of them at the top of their game and they had all the guys flying with them. All the troops working for them loved them because they were true heroes, but in the sense that that they were inspiring to the people who were working with them they weren't in charge of them and going off and being distant, that that effect of leadership is so strong. But, yes, those, those are the kind of people that we ought to be able to make something for, you know, whether it's a movie or documentary or whatever that focuses on the benefits of that to service today. Actually, with Robin Olds, when I was building the museum at Pearl Harbor a few years ago, shortly before Robin died, he did a video for me as the introduction in the museum and in that he said the things that happened at Pearl Harbor were instrumental in him being able to go off and fight in World War II and all. But he was born right there where we're building the museum at Pearl Harbor on Fort Island. His dad was in the Air Corps, so that got him in, but then he carried that story forward in what he did, which is now repeated in today's Air Force, and those are the kind of things that don't die.
Speaker 1:Those voices can come from the past and be a marker for us to be able to say, okay, that's where we were then, but isn't that the same thing that we're still doing today? And shouldn't we be as bold and as courageous? And sometimes the mavericks that get things done and lead people that way that they did, those are some marvelous stories. We'll find those things today still in museums. Those are some marvelous stories. We'll find those things today still in museums.
Speaker 1:But it's also out there now more. I think increasingly there are documentaries and films and series that are being done on some of that. But I think you're right. I think we need to get our new Secretary of Defense focused on that and get that brought more broadly out there and do that Sometimes. I've always thought that sometimes the services are a little bit too reluctant to say anything, not wanting to be braggadocio or viewed as being, uh, celebrities and special. It's not. It's about our people and about our, our, our heroism and making a country strong and surviving, so I think those are some pretty good ways that we can go to. What do you think?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, like I said before, leadership is not a popularity contest. But, you know, sometimes leaders just got to step out there and do what's right and get the attention of people. And I remember general focus on as, as you may recall, I think it was 1997 or whatever we had the helicopter shoot down and uh, yeah, you know, and uh, that was big. And then general focus on, um, that wasn't, it was probably 1990, not your fogerman, fogerman, yeah, fogerman, I think that was 1995 or whatever. But anyway, you know, general Fogerman came out with some tapes that every airman had to look at these to get back the standards and discipline and all those other things. And so I was the first sergeant back then and I had to make sure that every single airman in the squadron actually sat down and looked at these tapes. Now, that was man, that was 30 years ago. And now we're going basically back full circle to that time right there of getting back to standards and discipline and all that other stuff. And basically all you have to do is go get that VHS tape from General Fogelman and resurface that. It's the same exact message. So it's just bold leadership.
Speaker 2:And you know, in leadership, like I said, you know it's, you know it's goes back to leaders and you think about how the hell on military bases do we have drag queens in our clubs, in front of our children? And I can guarantee you it would take one minute for the chief of staff for each branch of service to say no drag queens on any military base. Boom, it's done, it's done. It would never happen. It would take one sentence from the chief of staff from each branch of service or the secretary of defense, and it would never happen.
Speaker 2:But somehow it kept on being promoted that we need drag queens. We think it's important and we had senior leaders who were trying to promote and get acceptance for drag queens on our military installations. Now, how the hell does that happen? That has nothing to do with combat capability. That has nothing to do with combat capability. That has nothing to do with the authority, it has nothing to do with training, has nothing to do with attention. So it's all about leadership. Leadership focus on right things and if you have leaders out there that are are promoting drag queens on our bases and all this other stuff, they're not the leaders we need. You know. Go do something else so.
Speaker 1:So what happens, though, when, when you have that kind of breach of leadership and you also have some integrity issues that go with it? But the worst thing is accountability too. When something goes wrong or things are not the way they should be, those are the things that destroy the confidence of the troops. Right Back when you were like a young E6, did that occur to you then? That your leaders, if they're not being accountable and they're not being good at what they do, that that's something that you can't look up to.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, back on, when I was an E6 and so forth, I was focused on not big Air Force, I was focused on what do I need to do with the wing level, at the squadron level, at the flight level, you know? And so that's what I was focused on, because you had trust that your senior leaders in in the Air Force that they would do always doing the right thing. But you know, you know, and I gotta tell you, even in my young career, we realized that we were making mistakes. Where, when I was at Seymour Johnson, we had topless dancers at the club, it was back in 1974, 1975. We had topless dancers and you tell airmen that today and they go oh my, I can't believe it. Yeah, but that happened and the military recognized that is not the right thing to do and they banned it, they did away with it. And so we have not always been perfect, but we recognize that we're doing something we shouldn't be doing and we correct it and we go forward. And then I get back to the whole thing about the drag queens. How did that happen? And that's almost like going back to 1974, 1975 and doing things that we shouldn't be doing.
Speaker 2:It's all about leadership. So hopefully we've learned our lesson. We've got a new direction from the Secretary of Defense that we're about lethality, we're about combat capability and so forth. Anything that detracts from that we should not be doing. And also it's about putting our tax dollars where the tax dollars should be going and eliminating all the waste. I just saw a video I think I sent this to you yesterday. Congress shows a little bag of bushings. This little plastic bag of bushings like this big cost $90,000, where you can go to a hardware store and buy the same bag for $10, you know. And so when you have industry that are just taking it to our military and cost an enormous amount of money for things that just make a tremendous amount of profit from, we've got to change that. Now our military budget is somewhere around $950 billion, somewhere around there.
Speaker 2:Probably 35% to 40% of that pays for personnel. So you've got a tremendous cost on personnel. And then you've got to think about how much money are we spending on $90,000 bushings and that's just on bushings. What are we doing for engines and everything else and tanks, and how much is the military industrial complex taking it to us and how much of that $950 billion is just profit for these companies?
Speaker 2:You look at China maybe their military budget's $300 billion, but their personnel cost is nowhere near 35% to 40%. They're probably not paying their people very much at all and if they're buying the bushings they're probably getting those same bushings for $5 versus $90,000. So their $300 billion on their military budget is probably equal to our $950 billion when you talk about what is actually going toward combat capability. So I think there's a lot that our country needs to do to get all that in line and it's not about the military industrial complex just continuing to get wealthy, but they should be a part of making our military the best it possibly can be and give us the prices of what the actual price is. I mean, I'm sure there's always going to be a little room for profit, but don't take us to the cleaners, because that is taxpayer dollars and when taxpayers are paying for that $950 billion, it should all be accounted for and hopefully Secretary of Defense also can get an audit in the Pentagon where we can actually pass an audit on what our budget's actually going for.
Speaker 1:And I think people would be pretty astounded at some of the things that come from that. For instance, remember when they were contracting for the new Air Force One and it was going to be I don't know five hundred billion dollars or something and but but Trump opposed that and in Lockheed, right away came back okay, okay okay, if you don't want to have it for being a billion dollars, how about we do it for, oh, maybe five hundred, five hundred million? Oh yeah, we can do that so well they.
Speaker 2:So it's just that attitude, right yeah, we, we need all these companies. It's not like I want to do away. We need them.
Speaker 2:We need them, we positively do and we need them to produce, we need them to give us the weapons we need and so forth. But don't go a thousand percent overboard on the prices of things and gouge our military. Remember, it's just like the very expensive toilet seats in the past. Well, that has not changed, you know, and I remember back when I was working on the A-10, I mean, a washer cost a tremendous amount of bucks and I could have gone to Tad's Hardware and bought the same thing for 10 cents.
Speaker 2:So hopefully, this whole thing for our military, it's not just about each military member, it's not just about each leader, it's about the whole country, including the military industrial complex, getting involved to help shape our military to be the most competent, the fiercest and taking care of taxpayers' dollars possible. But when we go to war, we don't want to go win the war 51 to 49. We want to win it 100 to 0. We don't want to lose American lives and hopefully that we don't have to go to war. But we're so powerful and so competent and when the public looks at us, when our competitors look at us, they go, wow, they've got their shit together. We do not want to go up against them because we know we're going to get our butts kicked, and that's what we need to do, and right now.
Speaker 2:You know, I looked up last night our mission capable rates and I think you know like we're F-35, f-22, probably hovering around 50%, you know. And then you look at our other older aircraft, you know tankers and so forth. You know we want them up around 80 percent or whatever. So we've got to do things to get our mission capable rates up higher, you know.
Speaker 2:And a lot of that is is also it's it's not only the supply system, the spare parts and everything else, but it's also competent aircraft mechanics. And I think we have a shortage of aircraft mechanics out there. And you say, well, you know, it's not easy to replace. You know an eight-year staff sergeant, you know who's been working on a jet. It takes eight years to replace that staff sergeant with that experience.
Speaker 2:So we've got to make sure that we put the right people in the right positions and we have those aircraft maintainers and so forth out there dedicated to their jobs and they're fully manned so that we can turn these aircraft around and get them back to mission capable. And so it's the big thing. It's not just the person you put in the cockpit, but it's that person out there turning the wrenches to make sure we take care of them, get them motivated, get them properly trained and we retain them. We can't afford them for them to step out, because when they step out we lose all that experience and then it takes a long time for someone else to gain that type of experience. So getting our Air Force and our mission capable rates back up and our aircraft ready to go fight and fly and fight, I think, is a super, super important part of what our air force needs to do, and 100 I know our leadership is is looking to that and doing it. But uh, you know, right now we've got to do better well, we've.
Speaker 1:We've tried and part of that has been to find ways to get realistment bonuses increased and other pay and benefits, housing, those other things for families better, and I think that's worked to some degree. But it kind of comes right back to what you and I are talking about earlier. It's the commitment on a part of the individual to pursue a career, not just a couple of years, and to pursue a career not just a couple of years and getting trained and then going off into civilian life. It's it's the focus on making sure we retain the best people, as you say, for as long as we can, hopefully for a whole career. But part of that goes back to the, the commitment and the inspiration for them to stay other than just for pay and some benefits, and that's where I think we can get some good work we can do still.
Speaker 2:You know, I had a dental appointment just a couple of days ago and the young lady, the hygienist, that was cleaning my teeth, and she was talking to me and she said, my husband spent four years in the Air Force, and I thought, wow.
Speaker 2:So we had a nice conversation about his career and they had a couple of kids and she was saying that when they got out of the Air Force after four years, you know that they were kind of shocked at how much things cost on the outside and everything and the things that they were missing. Because I think a lot of airmen, you know, and I and Chief Behnken came out with the benefits fact sheet, which was brilliant, which was brilliant. But a lot of airmen choose to get out of the military and they have no, they don't really realize that it's not just what they see on their leave and earning statement, the money there, but all those other things that you have the commissary, the BX, the fitness center, the medical, all these other things. There's a lot of money that you don't realize that's there until you no longer have them. And I can preach about this because in 1977, when President Carter was downsizing the military, I got out.
Speaker 2:I got out for four and a half years and I was outside the base at and at Seymour Johnson and Goldsboro and I'm going like me, and I can't go to the gym anymore, I'm not in the softball leagues, I can't take my, I don't have the medical, I can't go put to the golf course, I mean, and all these things that I would just I took for granted that weren't there.
Speaker 2:And so when I came back in the Air Force in 1982, I was dedicated. I knew I wanted to be an airman for life and so, whatever job they were going to give me, I was going to do the best that I possibly could. And so we got to make sure that, when an airman and when that family is deciding on whether or not to stay in, that we provide them all the facts you know, face to face of okay, we want you to be successful. This is your decision, but make an educated decision on all the benefits that you're no longer going to have and, if you choose to go out and do something else, thank you for serving our nation, thank you for everything that you've done, but this is an educated decision that you're making.
Speaker 1:And an important part of that is the spouse, who probably is going through the same thing. Right, if they're married, they're thinking about the same thing. Can I still do the same things I'm used to doing? Am I going to have the security when my husband's off doing something else that I've got in the military? I think those are some important things we can still emphasize.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, when you're talking about the retention, you want to retain the family and so you can't forget about the family, you can't forget about the kids. You got to make sure the school systems are good, you got to make sure the housing is good on off base or whatever the opportunities, and you got to take care of the whole family. And when you do events at the squadron level, I mean include the family. You know, and uh, it's the if, the if, the if the wife is not happy, you know it's, it's not a good thing.
Speaker 2:So uh, yeah, exactly right, or the spouse, because the wife, the, the female, could be the active duty member and the male be, so it goes vice versa yes you got to take care of the whole family but but that that just reinforces the the team nature of the family involved in it.
Speaker 1:If they're in it with the member, yeah, they're a big part of that same team right yeah, well, so you know I'm so, I'm so thankful.
Speaker 2:I'm just a small town boy from Ohio, population of 3000. And I've been around the world, I've been in the Oval Office, I've flown on Air Force One. And to think of being a small town country boy from where I grew up, I grew up poor, but the Air Force has given me opportunities. If you do the right things, if you keep focused and you do the right things, the only person that's going to prevent you from being successful is the person you see in the mirror.
Speaker 2:Now. You may not go on to be an 06 Colonel or Brigadier General or chief master in the air force, or even a chief, but if you serve your country for four years, eight years, 20 years, 30 years, you've done something spectacular that you know 95% of the country has not done. You know. So, uh, I'm just so grateful for the opportunities and the friends that I have made and the friends I still have, the friends I still communicate in the military, and I'm just so thankful. I'm not special, I'm not anything more than any other airman. I was just lucky along the way that I got promoted and I got put in the position, and once I was put into that position as the chief master of the Air Force put in the position and once I was put into that position as a chief master of the Air Force, I just tried to do the right thing every day and take care of airmen and work my butt off, and I did that up until the last day in the office.
Speaker 1:So as we kind of close out our session here, chief, if you got a message for a young person out there that may be searching for something in life they want to do, that's going to make them kind of special and joining the military, what would you say to them?
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I can just say that one of the things that I did in my military career I was an observer. I did in my military career. I was an observer. I always watch people and I watch people of how they treated other people. I watched what they did on off duty and if you think that your airmen aren't watching how many beers you're having, whatever they are, if you're telling off color jokes that you shouldn't be doing, they're paying attention.
Speaker 2:So I paid, I watched everybody and I'd look at people leaders or subordinates that were doing great things. I took a piece of that. I said, okay, I'm going to put that in my toolbox. Then I'd watch other people do things that were negative and I said that's not part of me, I'm never going to do that. So I learned I never had one specific person that a mentor. I think everybody was my mentor, from good or bad. So I think that for young people, so I think that for young people, come out and find somebody that you admire and try to follow their track and what they did and how they act, how they treat people. I think success is all about relationships and it's all about people and how you take care of people, how you treat them. I think kindness goes a long way. You know, I was a first sergeant for 10 years and I just absolutely loved being a first sergeant. But that's all about people.
Speaker 2:And and I love being around people, I love to joke and have a good time with them uh, go play sports with them, uh. But then there's also don't miss I always said don't mistake my smile and my calm demeanor as a sign of weakness. You know, because I was always about standards, I was always about discipline, I was always about military justice and all those things. So you can have all those things, but still go out and pat your people on the back and get to know them.
Speaker 2:And I think one of the things that was that made me successful is I got to know my people. You know I would walk around and I'd ask someone, you know, are you married? What's your wife's name? How many kids do you have? Do they play sports? And then I would come back and talk to whatever and I'd say, hey, how's your wife doing? Or doing, or you know, I and I would put down their birthdays, you know, so I, I'd say, hey, happy birthday, get back to work.
Speaker 2:But it's all about relationships, so that you know, if you have, if you go out there as a leader and you develop the relationships with your people, and if that person is having marriage issues or financial issues or whatever, and they're having problems, they'll come talk to you and they'll say, man, boss, I'm having some issues, and then you get them help, whether it's going to CHAPA and whether it's going to financial counseling or maybe even going to the emergency room. But you take care of your people and but if you don't know anything about them and a person is possibly suicidal, they're going through problems and you don't know the first thing about them. Only thing you know about is you want them to come to work, you want them to show up on time, you want them to pass their PT test. That's all you want from them. If they have a problem, they're not going to come to you, they're not going to come and say, hey, I need help, you know. So all of a sudden, something negative happens to him and you go wow, I didn't know these things were going on with Johnny. Of course you didn't, because you never took the time to get to know your people.
Speaker 2:So get to know your people, have relationships with them, but they're positive, strong relationships and you still hold them to high standards. If you set your standards low, they're going to reach them, they're going to stay down there low. But if you set really high standards but first you have to have the high standards for yourself you have to represent in everything that you do, the way you talk, the way you act, the way you wear your uniform, your physical fitness you have to have those personal high standards and when you do that, you can go out there and you to have those personal high standards, and when you do that, you can go out there and you can hold people to high standards. But your goal is to make them successful. Make them successful and you do that by caring about them, to talk to them, to get to know them and to teach them.
Speaker 2:You know so, um, it's all about relationships. And so for the young people, it's for the young people coming up man, look at those people that you admire and take those nuggets from them so that you can be a better airman, that you can be a better person. And those people that you're out there seeing that you know that are just doing crazy stuff. Take those two and say that will never be in my toolbox. So that's what I did as a young airman.
Speaker 1:As.
Speaker 2:I saw people I'm going like there's no way in the world I'm going to be like that. But I saw other people that I'm going like, wow, I admire that person so much and even even when I was chief master sergeant of the air force, I mean I would go visit airmen around the world and I would come across airmen first class and I'm going like, oh my God, this person is incredible. I wish I was as good as that. I wish I was as good as that person. You know, you know, uh, we have just incredible airmen out there. And uh, you know, and and so, um, you know, we have just incredible airmen out there. And you know, and so you know, even though I was the chief, I'm going like, wow, man, that's. You know, it's very humbling to go out there and see all these people and these airmen and how great they are. You know, and I'm just me, I don't know why the hell I'm here, but you know, I'm thankful I've got the same question.
Speaker 1:I'm't know why the hell I'm here, but you know I'm thankful I've got the same question.
Speaker 2:I'm going to do the best I can, since I'm here, you know.
Speaker 1:Well, well, chief, listen you're. You've got such an amazing story that covers more than 30 years and you've been from the bottom to the top, but it's a perfect example, as you say, of working with people, getting to know the value and work, and you know whether it's working on aircraft or flying them, or you know, working in a personnel office. It is all very special work and I want to thank you so much for being a part of the Air Force history as number 15 Chief Master, sergeant of the Air Force. I think that's an amazing accomplishment, and thanks for being a part of what we're doing here at STARS, as well as a member of our board of directors. It's an important mission and I think it just extends, as you say, what you were doing for those important years in the Air Force, and I'm happy to have spent a few years in the Air Force and then some in the Navy, and we share some of those same things about how we look at life here, and I'm happy to have had you with us. Thank you for being here and to our audience, we'll do some more of this with some more of our people, both from STARS and other people who have been notable in the military.
Speaker 1:I'm still working on getting Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth involved. We're getting him involved in an effort we're doing in Texas here in June, which is the celebration of volunteer military in Texas. He was going to be here before he got appointed as Secretary of Defense. I'm still working on finding a way to get him out here anyway. So, rodney, when we have that happen, I hope to get you out here for that too. That's 7th of June this year at the Alamo and the Menger Hotel. So more of that to come for our audience. Anyway, thanks, sir, for being with us today, to our audience, thank you for being a member or, if you are, or at least a visitor here to Stars and Stripes. Thanks, and we'll see you on another day.
Speaker 2:Alan, thank you for having me today and thank you for doing all these podcasts having me today, and and thank you for doing all these podcasts. They're all very important and I wish you and your family and the audience all the best.
Speaker 1:god bless well, thanks and god bless you, sir, and to our audience another day.